Austin Gray: Hey, welcome back to the OWNR OPS podcast! I'm your host, Austin Gray. In this episode, I have Alex Forbes back on. Alex is the founder and current owner of Lane 17 Custom Cabinetry.

We talk a lot about real-life business challenges in this episode. Alex was real and honest, sharing many of the challenges he faced while growing from $1.2 million to $1.65 million. They're at an inflection point right now, and he talks a lot about breaking through glass ceilings.

So, what's the next glass ceiling that you have over your head that you need to break through in order to get to the next stage of business? Alex shares how he thinks about breaking through his own glass ceilings. Stick around for the whole episode—let’s dive in!

Do You Operate Heavy Equipment and Want to Grow Your Business Online?

Check out Bearclaw Media! For those of you who have been listening, this was formerly Land Service Marketers, but we decided to brand it all under the Bearclaw name since we’ve already been building all the social media accounts.

So, what is Bearclaw Media? We offer digital marketing services for contractors throughout the U.S. in the heavy equipment industry. Think land clearing, excavation, snow removal, septic installation—if you’re doing any of those and have high-ticket order value, Bearclaw Media could be right for you.

If you want someone to handle all your social media management and bring you more leads to help grow your business, then Bearclaw Media is exactly what we used to grow Bearclaw Land Services. We’ll implement the same strategy into your business. You’ll get a dedicated account manager—all you have to do is upload photos and videos from the field into a shared iCloud album. Visit GoBearclawMedia.com and we’ll handle the rest!

Interview with Alex Forbes

Austin Gray: Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Forbes: Yeah, thanks for having me, man! I’m excited to chat about whatever we’re diving into today.

Austin Gray: How was 2024 for you?

Alex Forbes: It was good, man. It was stressful—it was pretty much our biggest growth year. Year-over-year, we grew 44% in revenue, which broke everything. All the systems we had in place? They didn’t work anymore.

Honestly, it was probably the most stressful year in business I’ve ever experienced, but they were the right challenges to face. In hindsight, I see it as a big win. I learned a ton, but I’m definitely excited to start a new year.

Austin Gray: Where did you close revenue-wise?

Alex Forbes: We ended up at $1.63 million last year. The year before, we did just over $1.2 million with two or three fewer employees. My biggest takeaway from the year was the people side of business.

I wasn’t equipped to grow 40% with the team I had before. It’s easy to plug in new equipment and suddenly increase capacity, but this year was a people year—and that was definitely challenging. I learned a lot through the process. How about you guys?

Austin Gray: We did well. Revenue went up. I did the same thing—implemented more people into the business and reinvested in the team.

That meant we saw a little decrease in true profit. I talked a lot about this with Les O’Hara. He coached me this year, and he made me explain it. I told him, "Look, I invested in people this year. The goal is that now, with the systems and people in place, we grow into that structure."

I’m curious to hear your perspective. You said this year was stressful—tell me about that.

Alex Forbes: Yeah, I think it’s natural, especially in businesses that involve equipment—manufacturing, field work, construction—to think, If we need to grow, let’s buy more equipment.

It makes sense. You upgrade machines, get higher throughput, and you increase production. But we often overlook the people side of business—not just hiring operators, but the human element of leadership.

As entrepreneurs, we tend to get tunnel vision. We think about revenue, systems, and scaling. But in doing that, I neglected basic leadership skills. I wasn’t as personable as a leader, didn’t implement a great incentive system, and I failed to create a positive feedback loop for my team.

We had a heart-to-heart a few months ago, and their perception of me was that I just wanted more, more, more. I never stopped to acknowledge our wins. That was a big gut-check moment for me.

I realized that I had been doing the jobs of three to five people for the past eight years. I handled sales, bookkeeping, invoicing, vendor payments, and project management—all while our projects lasted 12 to 20 weeks. I just didn’t have the bandwidth to be the leader I needed to be.

The breakthrough for me this year—the glass ceiling I had to break—was delegation. We hired a project manager to take projects off my plate. We hired a designer so I wouldn’t have to struggle through the design process. And as soon as I started shifting that workload, I had a lightbulb moment: everything had been broken, and I hadn’t even realized it.

That reset changed everything. Over the last 90 days, we ended the year stronger than ever. Now, we’re booked through May 2025, and we’ll be doing double the production volume we’ve ever done as a 10-person team. Everyone is rowing in the same direction now, and that makes all the difference.

Austin Gray: What’s your five-year vision for the business?

Alex Forbes: Revenue-wise, we need to land between $3 million and $5 million. With the overhead and equipment we have, it doesn’t make sense to manufacture under $3 million.

Every year for the last eight years, we’ve grown 30–50% year-over-year because I’ve been pedal-to-the-metal trying to scale. But profit is still low because we reinvest everything—whether it’s new equipment, better pay for employees, or key hires.

My goal is to get to a healthy mid-seven-figure revenue. Once we hit $5 million, I’ll reassess whether it makes sense to grow beyond that.

Austin Gray: To get there, what changes have you made to your role? Where do you need to spend your time?

Alex Forbes: The big realization I had is that I need to focus on my strengths. John Cipher—who I’ve been working with for business coaching—calls it getting everyone to play at the top of their game.

For me, that means sales, lead generation, and marketing. Those things give me energy—I could do them 24/7 and never get tired. But project management? I hate it. I’m a forward-looking guy, and project management pulls me backward. Even though I’m good at it, it drains me.

So, getting that off my plate was huge. Now, I handle lead generation, marketing, and sales. Eventually, I’d like to delegate estimating as well and focus solely on growth strategy.

Austin Gray: Where’s the balance between eliminating what drains you vs. improving on weaknesses? Do you double down on strengths, or should you push yourself to grow in areas where you struggle?

Alex Forbes: So, I think those are maybe mutually exclusive. In terms of the first part—doing something that takes energy from you—I think that's just a requirement as you grow a business.

I'll say this: if you recognize my journey, I started this business at 24 years old in a one-car garage. I'm learning all of this in real time while trying to keep up with a million-dollar-plus revenue company. I think if someone started a business in their 30s or 40s, they probably would have already realized a lot about what they're good at and not good at. They could have strategized better from the start.

To answer your question, though, I think you first have to recognize your strengths and weaknesses—without ego. You have to be honest about what you're good at because that directly affects the top and bottom lines. If you insist, "I have to be the rainmaker," but you suck at making rain, then don’t be the sales guy. Don’t go get leads. If you want that title on your business card but aren’t actually capable, you’ll suffocate your business growth.

Recognizing what you're good and bad at is key. Then, you have to acknowledge whether you have the resources to hire or outsource what you’re bad at. If you don’t, you’ll need to do it yourself—but with a strategic plan in place. For example, you might say, "I’ll do project management for two years because I believe in two years we can grow enough to hire a project manager." I never did that. I just kept doing things aimlessly until one day it all caught up with me.

Growth is never comfortable. You’re never going to walk into the shop or office one day and say, "I’m ready to pay a project manager $100,000." It just doesn’t happen like that. In my experience, you endure so much pain from not making those moves that you’re eventually forced to take a leap of faith—whether that’s hiring key people, onboarding new equipment, or taking on a bigger project.

I don’t know if it was the same for you when you landed your first government contract. The word "government" can be scary and convoluted. You might not know what needs to be in that contract, and you second-guess whether it's tight enough. But at some point, you just have to take that leap and figure it out. Hopefully, you dot your I’s and cross your T’s, but the key is to go for it.

So, going back to your question: yes, you have to do things you don’t like for a while. The better your plan for getting out of those roles, the smoother the transition. If you’re weak in an area, you can hire coaches, talk to peers, or find a mentor. But just like with tasks you dislike, you should also have a threshold. If by a certain date you’re not meeting the level the business needs, you have to be honest with yourself and say, "I’m not cut out for this—we need to hire someone better."

All of this requires humility. Running a business means being honest with yourself.

Austin Gray: Has there been a point in 2024 where you felt comfortable, or do you just live in a constant state of discomfort?

Alex Forbes: Yeah, I think the phrase "get comfortable being uncomfortable" is absolutely true. A good example is our recent hire. Our installer, who is a wealth of knowledge, started transitioning into a project management role part-time. He'll be full-time after the new year. Even with just one or two days a week in this role, he’s taken tasks off my plate, allowing me to focus on strengthening our systems and foundation.

For the first time, my workload wasn’t insane—and it felt foreign. It was uncomfortable. I was so conditioned to putting out fires constantly that when things stabilized, it felt wrong. I had this nagging feeling like I should be doing more.

That’s a weird shift. I know there will always be problems to solve in business, but when you start escaping the firefighting phase, it feels strange. I’m by no means out of it, but I’ve noticed that I now exist in a constant state of discomfort. And somehow, that has become my new normal.

Austin Gray: I’m glad I’m not the only one. Earlier in business, I’d think, "Man, this is really uncomfortable—I must be doing something wrong." But now, I’m realizing that discomfort means I’m about to break through a glass ceiling.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: In our last interview—if you guys haven’t listened, go check it out—one thing that really stuck with me was this idea that business is just consistently breaking through glass ceilings. Since then, I’ve started thinking, "Okay, I’m uncomfortable right now—let’s get comfortable with that feeling because I’m probably on the verge of a breakthrough."

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: For you, this year, it sounds like that glass ceiling was people.

Alex Forbes: Yep, absolutely. And not just staffing—it was about learning how to motivate people, how to rally them. Good leaders do that.

This past year was a huge wake-up call for me. I’ve always considered myself a natural leader with friends, family, and my business. But in 2024, I was absolutely failing at it. That was a tough realization.

But everything in business is dynamic. If you can’t change, evolve, or get better, you’ll stagnate. Leadership was one of the areas I needed to improve. I worked with my coach, John Cipher, and a lot of what he taught me wasn’t even about capability—it was about knowing where to look. The key is to take action, get feedback, make adjustments, and keep improving.

The challenge with leadership is that you’re dealing with people, emotions, and relationships, which makes it more complicated than other business problems. But the process of solving it is the same: analyze, adapt, and execute.

Austin Gray: Striker Digital specializes in SEO services for local service businesses. The two co-founders, Bod and Andy, helped me get Bearclaw Land Services to the number one search result in my state for my specific search term. If you want to learn more, visit StrikerDigital.com—that’s S-T-R-Y-K-R Digital dot com.

Austin Gray: What do you mean specifically by "where to look" in leadership?

Alex Forbes: I think an example would be my approach to motivation. I’m personally motivated by constant pressure, numbers, and financial goals. That’s how I was trying to lead my team—by emphasizing metrics and targets the way I do as a business owner.

But our project manager, Ben, made a great point. He said, "Yeah, people appreciate a bonus, but a lot of your guys just need to feel heard and appreciated." It’s not just about throwing extra money at them—it’s about making them feel valued.

Sometimes, that means simply telling someone they did a great job. Other times, it’s small gestures, like a pizza Friday or grabbing drinks after work. Those little things create motivation on a human level. You don’t have to be an over-the-top cheerleader—just a regular, supportive leader.

I was so laser-focused on business goals that I forgot to take a step back and celebrate wins with my team. I never did the most basic things, like saying, "Hey, let’s grab a beer after work—you guys killed it this week." That realization hit me hard.

Going into the new year, I’m making that shift. I know that if I want to rally my team effectively, I have to lead differently.

Austin Gray: Why do you think that’s hard for someone like you?

Alex Forbes: I think it goes back to what I said earlier—I'm motivated by the challenge. If business is a mountain that you're climbing, and you're trying to reach the summit, I’m just motivated by looking at the mountain. If I’m at the base, I’m motivated by the climb. If I’m three miles from the peak, that's all I need to know—I’ll go. What motivates me is figuring out how to get to the top, even if it means tripping over trees, falling down a few times, and hitting obstacles along the way. That keeps me engaged and motivated.

Even if the peak is financial freedom, time freedom—whatever it is—I’m okay if that takes a decade. The mountain itself is my motivation. But that’s not how most people think.

Most people on a team aren’t motivated that way. They’re happy to follow and do the work, but they might want to stop for coffee, set up a campfire, and just enjoy the process instead of sprinting up the mountain and falling down twelve times.

It took me a long time to realize that I needed to disassociate what motivates me from what motivates a team. The root cause of this disconnect is that the team doesn’t have the full picture of the business. Otherwise, they’d have their own business, right?

Each person on the team has a smaller window into the business based on their role. It would be unfair for someone on the shop floor to fully grasp our revenue numbers or profit margins. Even if I shared those details, they wouldn’t necessarily know how to connect that information to their daily work. Not because they’re not smart—just because they don’t have visibility into the rest of the business.

So, what I’m learning is that while I’m still motivated by the mountain, I need to break off pieces that are relevant to everyone else on the team. That boils down to setting clear daily output targets. Our CNC operator needs to run a specific number of plywood sheets per day. Our door specialist needs to produce a set number of doors per day. Our assembly team needs to assemble a certain number of cabinets per day. It’s just basic math.

This isn’t meant to motivate them—it’s simply the expectation of the job so OWNR OPS can operate effectively. The next challenge, and the part I’m excited about, is connecting these outputs to motivation and getting everyone to rally around them. That really just comes down to fundamental human appreciation—kindness, honesty, and communication. But when you’re grinding, you can lose sight of that.

Austin Gray: Dude, I was laughing on camera because that was such a great analogy.

Alex Forbes: Yeah.

Austin Gray: You and I are literally climbing mountains with our businesses.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: The reason I was laughing is that it shows how messed up in the head guys like us are. Like, why are we motivated by that? Most people want to enjoy the process, and all we want to do is get to the freaking top.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: It doesn’t matter if we have to plow through trees, trip over rocks, or struggle the whole way up.

Alex Forbes: Exactly. And to add one more element—you're never going to be motivated by someone else's mountain.

Austin Gray: No way.

Alex Forbes: Otherwise, you'd just go get a job. I mean, you could have easily worked for one of the big land-clearing companies in your area, but you're not motivated by someone else’s mountain. You wanted to carve your own path.

There’s something about entrepreneurs—especially those who start from scratch rather than buying a business. There’s this drive to create something from zero. It’s fulfilling when you set a goal and actually hit it.

Austin Gray: I just finished recording with Brock Peele. Have you ever listened to any of his episodes? He started a septic business.

Alex Forbes: I don’t think so, but I’ll check it out.

Austin Gray: I interviewed him last year and split it into two hour-long episodes. The dude is crazy—in the best way. He specialized in septic systems, went all in, and said no to everything else. He had three guys and did $1.3 million in revenue in their first year. Keep in mind, they only have a six- or seven-month working period. Then, this year, he texted me and told me they did $2.3 million—with just three guys!

What motivates someone to plow through all that? That’s what we got into on the episode, so if you're listening, go check that one out. But as it relates to what we’re talking about, there’s something different about people who start businesses from scratch.

Alex Forbes: Yeah.

Austin Gray: Is it all about the money for you? Or is it just the fact that there's this mountain to climb and you want to take on the challenge?

Alex Forbes: I think back to when I started almost ten years ago. I was 24, working out of a one-car garage, making cutting boards. I launched the business in the fall, so I was selling into the holiday season. I sold about $5,000 worth of cutting boards. I liked woodworking, which is why I chose it. But really, I was trying to break away from a corporate job and environment that I hated.

Woodworking isn’t a fast-track to making money. If you want to make real money, you have to go into full-blown manufacturing, and to make good money, you need to be in the seven- or eight-figure range. I didn’t know any of that at the time.

When I was younger, I had way less patience than I do now, but even then, I committed ten years to see where this business could go. I knew nothing about leading people, finances, cash flow, or anything else—I just learned along the way.

I think it really is just about the mountain. Otherwise, why not just get a job? If I had put 50% of my effort into a high-performing W2 job, I’d probably be making four times what I’m taking out of the business now. But I’d be miserable. I don’t even think I would have lasted ten years. I’d probably be depressed and have quit already.

For people who buy businesses, they’re just starting a little further up the mountain. They still have a climb ahead, but at least they’re working with an operating company that’s generating revenue.

Austin Gray: Absolutely. So, what I want to dive into here is—how are you thinking about tying the output thinking metrics to what motivates people in specific roles?

Alex Forbes: I haven’t fully figured that out yet. What I do know is that we were lacking clear expectations.

Our team members used to wear multiple hats in the shop. But now, we’re finally at a place where we’re staffed enough for people to have focused roles and actually achieve the output goals we need.

For example, our longest-standing shop guy, Cole, is an incredible woodworker. He was doing everything—doors, drawers, finishing, assembly. Now, he’s focused solely on doors, and we expect him to make 30 per day. That expectation wasn’t possible before because he was pulled in too many directions.

Now that we have clear expectations, we’ll likely tie compensation bonuses to overachievement. It’s not just about money, but people do appreciate financial incentives. Beyond that, I want to integrate more team bonding. If we beat our production schedule, we can go grab pizza and beers together. Or, if we’re crushing it, let’s just leave early on Fridays.

Ultimately, I want to give people back their time. For example, I’d love to shut down a few days before Christmas and give everyone time off without using PTO. But that only works if we hit our goals first.

If we just take time off without planning, we’d come back in January drowning in work. The key is connecting rewards to outputs so it’s a win-win for everyone.

Austin Gray: This episode is brought to you by dialed in bookkeeping Ben and his team provide bookkeeping services job casting reports and accurate financial information for the Home Services industry if you're looking to keep your books up to date visit dialed in bookkeeping.com wnr Ops when you use this specific landing page you'll get your first 3 months 50% we're December 21st 2024 right now it's the second time we've had you on Alex what are you leaving behind in 2024 and what will you be taking forward for 2025.

Alex Forbes: Lo question I think I'll be leaving behind.

Austin Gray: Yeah start with the leaving behind yeah.

Austin Gray: This episode is brought to you by Dialed In Bookkeeping. Ben and his team provide bookkeeping services, job costing reports, and accurate financial information for the home services industry. If you're looking to keep your books up to date, visit DialedInBookkeeping.com. OWNR OPS—when you use this specific landing page, you'll get your first three months at 50% off.

We're December 21st, 2024, right now. It's the second time we've had you on, Alex. What are you leaving behind in 2024, and what will you be taking forward for 2025?

Alex Forbes: Low question. I think I'll be leaving behind—

Austin Gray: Yeah, start with the leaving behind.

Alex Forbes: I'll definitely be leaving behind the completely raw, tunnel-vision mentality of trying to grow a business by force. That got us to a point—I mean, you have to do that. For me, everything changed when we got to a million in sales. That was just straight brute force. There were no systems. We were way understaffed. We were just working enough hours to make that happen, making a ton of mistakes along the way, working three times as hard because we had to fix the mistakes on top of working twice as hard.

That approach will get you to a point, but I’ve carried that mindset longer than I should have. It’s funny—you set these goals, like the magic million-dollar revenue number. When you're starting a business or if you're doing less than a million, that's always this threshold everyone tries to hit. You might focus on it for years, and then all of a sudden, you hit it. There's no fireworks, no celebration. One day, your books just say you've crossed a million in sales.

This last year, I retained the bad habits of brute force that it took to get to a million, even though this is the second year we've been over a million now—and we're closer to two than we are to one. Yet, I’m still thinking as if we're trying to break through a million. That’s led to poor leadership and poor management. So, I’ll be leaving behind that mentality.

It took a leap of faith and hiring some key people to get things off my plate so I could see things more clearly. What I'll be taking with me is an attitude of teamwork and delegation—really being able to trust my team.

When laying out expectations—whether it's outputs, systems, or delegation—I shouldn't expect someone to just figure out who our vendors are, what the contacts are, or how they’re supposed to pay for things. I need to make sure there's a system, a standard. I need to train them on it, trust them to do it, check in, and offer support instead of just saying, "Here, figure it out." That sets people up for failure. So, what I’m taking with me is a more strategic approach to delegating, leading, and supporting people, rather than just cramming more work down everybody’s throat—including my own.

Austin Gray: Dude, that's such a good word and an area I know I need to get better at, too. As the founder—the guy who's pioneering things—it’s so easy for you to just go figure something out. That’s what you love. You love the fact that there's a mountain that doesn’t have a trail up it.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: I love that—the mountain doesn't have a trail, literally and figuratively. We’re clearing the trail with machines, and it's the same thing business-wise. But dude, I hired overseas for back office work, and it was such a punch in the face—punch in the gut—because you realize how bad you suck at certain things.

Alex Forbes: Yeah.

Austin Gray: And that’s part of being comfortable with being uncomfortable. We were talking about this earlier—I did that exact same thing. I put the expectations I have on myself—"just go figure it out"—on someone else.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: And I learned in 2024 that that doesn’t work.

Alex Forbes: Not at all. I had the same exact experience.

Austin Gray: How did yours go?

Alex Forbes: Well, when you’re delegating a role or a series of roles for the first time ever, it’s like clearing a trail. When you go clear a path, you're just barreling through all the brush and trees. In your head, you know that’s now the path. But you didn’t mark any of the trees, so the guys behind you trying to follow your trail are like, "Did he take a left at this oak tree? I don’t know. It looks like he maybe went over here a little bit. How did he get up there?" But you know because you did it.

The transition becomes this: breaking through the glass ceiling always leads to a larger workload than you currently have. So, you hit max pain tolerance on not outsourcing something and finally say, "This is ridiculous—I have to hire someone." So you do it. You hire, and you think, "I'm doing the right thing."

Then you realize that person has no tools or resources to do their job. Now they're on payroll, you’re expecting something of them, but you're still doing all the work yourself. On top of that, now you have to create the playbook for them while they're trying to muscle through their role, and you're still doing everything you were doing before.

The only way to create space for someone else to fill a role is for you to do what the version of you a year from now has to do—today. That’s where a lot of people hit a brick wall.

Austin Gray: I agree.

Alex Forbes: That is the most uncomfortable stage of business growth. As someone who’s comfortable being uncomfortable, I still felt the weight of it.

That’s why I reached out to John. If you have a coach, mentor, or peer group, they are most needed during this time. You need people to help you see things clearly and objectively. Because you're also human, right? You experience frustration. You can't just brute force your way through this stage—people will leave, and nothing will get done.

Austin Gray: It’s incredibly difficult. How often do you think about going back to the stage that was comfortable?

Alex Forbes: Probably every other day.

I’ve thought about it seriously maybe half a dozen times this year—and even in the last 30 days. I’ve thought about just shutting it down. "Is this even possible?" You start losing confidence in your own ability because so much time passes while you're stuck at a glass ceiling.

Glass ceilings aren’t just a week-long thing. Depending on the level, it could take months. The bigger the growth, the thicker the glass. The ceiling we’re breaking through now will take every bit of 12 to 18 months.

The sooner you standardize, systemize, train people, and delegate, the sooner you create the mental space to see things clearly. I was messing up because I wasn’t addressing the right things. I wasn’t setting people up for success—I was just expecting them to figure it out. That delayed this breakthrough process by probably six to ten months.

Austin Gray: Dude, what you're talking about is so real. You guys are hearing it from Alex—he's been in the game, he's hit these revenue ceilings or broken through certain ones, but this is what's real right now. And I'm right in the middle of the same thing. How often do you wake up with just a pit in your stomach?

Alex Forbes: Most days.

Austin Gray: Yeah. Like, I would say more days than not, that pit is what drives me out of bed at 3:30, 4, 4:30 in the morning because stuff has to be done. Decisions have to be made. Things have to be addressed. And I'm just starting to get to this point where—this is just how it is, growing a business.

Alex Forbes: Right. How many guys do you have now—guys or girls?

Austin Gray: Well, I'm running a lot of subcontractors on the shoveling side. So, yeah, we just added probably 12 more there. As you know, we’re a seasonal business, which adds some challenges. I basically have to run two separate businesses—one in the summer, one in the winter—and they both have their own challenges. One thing we took on was snow plowing this year. We’re doing that with some of our guys from the summer team. It was sort of a shot in the dark. Some people say it’s lucrative, some don’t. But really, the only way to know is to go out there, do it, track your numbers—track everything.

So, yeah, we're right in the middle of it right now.

Alex Forbes: Just to touch on a comment you made about some people saying it's lucrative and some saying it's not—I’ve learned that doesn't mean anything. The people who say it's lucrative are the ones who figured out the outputs, the systems, how to lead, how to manage. The ones who don’t are the guys who’ve been grading and plowing for 30 years but never really put effort into building a team or systems.

Maybe that's a bit of an ignorant comment, but I feel like it's true. Take custom cabinet manufacturing—it’s difficult, period. Factor in custom stains, paints, and the finishing process—that's by no means bulletproof. It’s the most fragile thing in a big heavy truck loaded with cabinets. It’s almost like oil and water trying to move them around, let alone the skill it takes to produce the finish we achieve. I hold it as one of the top 10% most difficult businesses to operate.

I think people who don’t scale, the one- or two-man shops that just stay that size—father and son until one day the son takes over—they never try to systemize. They never ask, "What are the outputs? How can we connect everything to tangible numbers?" The ones who say it’s not lucrative never really tried—or at least never successfully did those things. Because every business is lucrative, otherwise, why would they exist? The real question is, how much efficiency can you extract from it?

Austin Gray: Yes, definitely. The other side of the coin is that some businesses are easier to build than others. Some models are just better. Even within plowing, for example, you can target different market subsets, structure pricing, and contracts accordingly. We’re totally in startup phase on our winter side of the business. We’re throwing things against the wall, but we’re tracking numbers diligently.

At the end of the day, we have to ask: Is this worth it? Is this schedule, this workload, these margins—are they worth it? Those are the kinds of real-time decisions we’re making.

Alex Forbes: Right.

Austin Gray: So, you’re back for the second time, and I told you in the beginning—we have to have you on again. Listeners, if you’re hearing this, I want your feedback. Do you like this format of bringing the same guests back semi-annually or yearly to talk about real business?

It's easy to hop on a podcast and talk about the highs—"Oh yeah, we did this, we did that." But I want to have real conversations in public about what we’re actually thinking through. If you're listening on YouTube, drop a comment below: Yes, I like this format, or no, I prefer something different.

I’m curious about your perspective, Alex. Do you think it’s interesting to listen to the same guests go deeper on topics?

Alex Forbes: I’ll probably have a biased answer because I enjoy talking shop like this. I could do it for hours. It’s almost therapeutic because there aren’t a ton of people you can talk about it with. At least in my personal life.

I think it’s beneficial because every business goes through the same problems—just in different seasons. Most business podcasts are the same—big, broad business culture stuff. But look at our first episode—I’d have to listen back, but I probably didn’t even know half the things I just described to you. The leadership struggles I faced this year? Those weren’t even on my radar last time.

So hopefully, this episode shows some growth. Maybe your audience starts to see how real business owners are letting the rubber meet the road and actually doing something about it. Bringing guests back lets people hear how things evolve—what problems we solved at this revenue phase, what challenges we’re facing now.

There’s value in that. I would’ve loved that over the last eight years. Podcasts blew up, and guys like Gary Vee and Andy Frisella got us motivated to start. They give some tangible takeaways, but it’s mostly surface-level. These conversations go deeper.

Maybe a million people won’t find value in this, but if 5, 10, 20 thousand people listen and say, "I've never heard a conversation like this before," that’s powerful. I vote yay for it.

Austin Gray: If you haven’t signed up for the weekly newsletter, go to OwnerOps.com/newsletter. That’s O-W-N-R-O-P-S dot com slash newsletter. We summarize lessons from our guests and distill them into short, actionable tips, tricks, and strategies you can use to grow your business. Sign up at OwnerOps.com.

We’re definitely moving in this direction. One of my goals was to meet other business owners and learn from them. If I can just host people, ask questions that I actually have in my own business journey—like, "How are you handling this at this revenue mark?"—I think it’s valuable.

I talk about revenue because I believe at different revenue levels, you have to make different decisions. You didn’t even know the challenges you’d face going from 1.2 to 1.6 million, but now they’re surfacing because you grew. Your processes are breaking.

That’s why I give revenue context—so listeners at, say, $500K can hear someone who just passed a million and see what they were thinking about at that time.

Alex Forbes: It almost gives people a way to see into the future a little bit.

Austin Gray: Exactly. If I knew what I needed to be thinking about now for going from 1 to 2 million, or even 1.5 to 2, I’d be able to strategize better for what’s ahead.

Alex Forbes: Yeah.
‍
Austin Gray: My question for you, though, is—let's go back to the point where you talked about dropping the ball on certain things. It all came back to setting the right expectations with people. For me, I dropped the ball in hiring overseas—not because I hired overseas, but because I didn’t set up the right process or systems to allow that person to succeed. And I take responsibility for that.

So for you, in terms of hiring and creating a system and process for your team, what are you doing differently now? What tools are you using, and what’s your approach before bringing on the next hire?

Alex Forbes: One big thing we lacked was a company playbook. And by that, I mean everything from attendance and PTO policies to project management workflows, invoicing, and standard operating procedures (SOPs). That information has to live somewhere that’s easily accessible for the team.

We used Google Drive for everything, which was great for organizing drawings, appliance specs, and other details for custom cabinet projects. But when it came to managing everything else—like manufacturing processes, internal policies, and team collaboration—it turned into a mess of folders, Word docs, and Excel files.

At first, when it was just me and one other person, it was fine. I had control over all the information. But as soon as we scaled to three, four, five people, it just didn’t work. Everything was buried in files, and people couldn’t find what they needed.

We tried ClickUp for project management, Asana for task tracking, and Pipedrive as our CRM, but there was no central place to house the company playbook. I needed a single source of truth, so I started using Notion. At first, I thought it was just a simple task manager. But after playing around with it, I realized it could handle everything we needed.

It does take time to learn, but after a month of messing around with it, I built it into our company playbook. Now we have dedicated workspaces for sales, project management, engineering, and production. We also have a separate section for all company policies.

The second I offloaded some project management work, I went all in on building this out. Now our CRM, Kanban board, engineering schedules—everything is in Notion. And in the new year, my production manager will start logging daily outputs, so we’ll have real-time performance tracking.

The biggest mistake I made as a leader before was not having predefined agreements on performance. My judgment of individual and team performance was just based on my feelings. If someone disagreed, it became a debate of opinions instead of looking at clear data.

Now, I don’t have to ask my production manager how we’re doing—I can just check the log. If our output is off, it triggers a conversation. Not to call someone out, but to ask, “What happened? What do you need?” Maybe the cut lists weren’t making sense. Maybe there was a bottleneck we didn’t anticipate. The goal is to support the team, not just track numbers for the sake of tracking them.

Long story short, I needed a system that was simple, clear, and easy for the whole team to use. Notion became that system for us.

Austin Gray: That makes complete sense. And for those who don’t know, Notion is a software platform that’s worth learning. I’ve used it in the past, and I’m glad you brought this up because now I’m thinking about transferring everything from Google Drive into Notion.

It’s fairly straightforward too, right?

Alex Forbes: Yeah.

Austin Gray: I imagine if I logged into your Notion, everything would be laid out clearly—sales, project management, engineering. Anyone logging in for the first time could see exactly where they fit in. That’s key when onboarding a new hire.

Is that what you’ve set up already?

Alex Forbes: Yeah. I’ve laid out the different departments and populated some of the key things like CRM and scheduling. The nitty-gritty SOPs will get added over time as we refine them.

Notion can feel intimidating at first because when you create an account, it’s a total blank slate. You have to put in the hours to figure it out. But once you do, it’s simple. You can create lists, tables, databases—it’s actually really intuitive once you break through that learning curve.

Austin Gray: What role did you hire overseas for?

Alex Forbes: Just basic back-office admin stuff.

Austin Gray: Same. One of my biggest strengths is identifying opportunities and making things happen. But my weakness is anything recurring. I get bored fast.

So my question earlier—where do you fight that battle? Do you try to get better at it, or do you just delegate it? There’s this ego side that says, “I’m going to get better at this,” but sometimes that’s actually a weakness.

Alex Forbes: Exactly.

Austin Gray: Early on, you do have to wear a ton of hats. You don’t have a choice. You either figure it out or your business suffers.

But I’ve realized that if I let myself do any recurring task for too long, I get overloaded and start dropping the ball. So now, I approach it differently:

1. I do the task myself first.
2. I document the process.
3. I record a Loom video explaining it.
4. I delegate it.

Right now, for example, on our shoveling crew, I get the job lists texted to me from our foreman. I input them into a Google Sheet. I know this happens every time it snows. That means it’s a repeatable process that needs to be offloaded.

So I document it, create a Loom video, and put it in a system—probably Notion, now that we’re talking about it. That way, I never have to think about it again.

I just know myself well enough now. If I don’t delegate recurring tasks while they still feel new and interesting to me, I’ll get bored, procrastinate, and start missing details. That’s when mistakes happen.

Alex Forbes: That’s a solid approach.

Austin Gray: It’s a game-changer. Because as an entrepreneur, I want to stay focused on vision and strategy. If I spend too much time on the weeds, I lose momentum.

So yeah, I think Notion plus Loom could be a super powerful way to build an actual playbook for scaling a business.

Alex Forbes: Yeah, so I think recognizing that you have energy from being in the pioneering phase and understanding that you need to harness it is key. That’s the time to standardize a role—while you’re still excited about it.

What happens is that you start feeling burnout. You realize, "Okay, I don’t actually like this thing. It’s recurring. I don’t want to do it." Now, you’re not motivated to put in the additional work of standardizing and systemizing it. That stacks on top of the work you’re already doing because you’re still handling that recurring task. Then, you experience max pain in that role and think, "I’m just going to hire somebody—without a playbook for them."

What’s great about Notion is that it allows you to centralize everything. You’ve got tools like Loom, Google Sheets—different forms of media that can help create a standard. But for me, the disconnect was that there was no single place to store it all.

With Notion, everything is a page. Even if you create a list or a table, it all lives in one structured place. For example, let’s say one of your overseas employees has an admin role that includes invoicing customers. You might have a table listing her responsibilities, and one of those could be invoicing. That item could link to a dedicated page on invoicing, where you type up a couple of sentences explaining how to do it, include a bolded list with nuanced details you’ve learned from years of invoicing, and embed a Loom video demonstrating the process. You could even link a Google Sheet right there.

Without a tool like Notion, all of this information is scattered. The power of Notion is the centralization of information.

Austin Gray: Absolutely, man. You’ve really encouraged me. This is the work I’ve known, deep down, that I need to do. But this is why I love doing the podcast.

I genuinely hope you guys listening can hear the passion in my voice. This is why I started the podcast—because I firmly believe that iron sharpens iron. Alex has been in the trenches for the last decade, figuring out these systems. Having these conversations is a reminder: "Alright, Alex figured this out. Now it’s time for me to pick it up and stop dropping the ball."

The encouragement from someone like Alex is that push to just go make it happen. If you’re in the same boat listening to this—go download Notion. Let’s rock and roll. Let’s figure this thing out.

Alex, what tips do you have for someone just starting out?

Alex Forbes: First off, I appreciate you having me on. I love these conversations—it’s why I started following you originally. It’s why I joined X in the first place: to talk about this stuff and stay motivated by others doing it.

That said, I am not some genius. I think I’m a sharp guy, sure, but I’m not some crazy intellect. I’m just someone who refuses to give up. If you’re just starting out or hitting that next glass ceiling, it’s going to hurt. It’s going to suck. There’s no way around that. Growth is painful, and there’s no way to soften that blow.

The biggest advice I can give? Have confidence in yourself and in the team you’re building. Just don’t give up. With that mindset, you can solve a lot of problems.

Austin Gray: I love it, man. This has been fun, as always. I appreciate our back-and-forth. We’ve talked about this before, but that’s why we both joined X—to meet other people wired like us. People who are willing to trailblaze up the mountain with no clear path ahead.

I’m grateful for our friendship, and don’t ever hesitate to reach out if you need to bounce ideas off me. I’ll do the same. Wishing you the best in 2025—I truly mean that.

Alex Forbes: Yeah, I appreciate that! You as well, man. I’m curious to see how your plowing contracts go and how you transition back into land clearing and excavating once the weather breaks. I’ll keep tabs on you over on X for sure.

Austin Gray: It’s been really fun. The short version is—I’ve found the 20% that’s driving 80% of the growth. And I’ll leave it at that.

We’ll wrap up here. Alex, thanks again for being on another episode of the OWNR OPS podcast. And to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in.

I started this podcast as a way to make connections and reinforce that "iron sharpens iron" mindset. Alex is sharpening my skills just by having this conversation, and I hope you guys are getting value from it too.

If you are, we’d really appreciate it if you’d leave a five-star review. Just like building a local service business, getting five-star reviews on Google is huge. Podcasts work the same way. If you enjoy this, leave a five-star review on Apple or Spotify.

Also, like and subscribe on YouTube—it helps us out a lot. We appreciate the support.

Finally, we’re sending out a weekly newsletter. Our agency team takes this podcast, uses tools like ChatGPT to summarize key points, and sends it to you in an email every Saturday. If you haven’t signed up yet, go to OWNR OPS.com/newsletter—that’s OWNROPS.com/newsletter.

Thanks for listening. Don’t forget: Work hard, do your best, and never settle for less. See you guys in the next one.